Decluttering

Jane: MS Plus acknowledges the traditional owners of the land this podcast has been recorded on, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respect to their Elders past, present and emerging.

Hello and welcome to the MS Plus podcast. My name is Jane and I'm an MS nurse. Today we're joined by Julie Cliff. Julie is a declutter coach and professional organiser. She has her own company called Space and Time where she offers online courses and provides hands on support where she visits people in their homes to help them with decluttering.

Here is my chat with Julie. So, Julie you're a declutter coach and a professional organizer. Can you tell us about what that title means and how you got into this work?

Julie: I call myself a declutter coach when I'm online and teaching people the skills so they can go and do their own decluttering and coaching them and breaking it down into those little manageable bits that they can go and do.

And I call myself a professional organizer when I'm hands on in people's homes, particularly here in Melbourne because that's where I live and helping them one on one with their clutter. So, slightly different skills, but very similar. How I got into it? I am an executive assistant by trade, so always helping others get and stay organized in an office.

And 15 of those years were at Melbourne Storm Rugby League Club. So always loved our rugby league. And as I said 15 years you can get some good routines and habits going in that time, which I eventually transferred over to helping people. Manage their homes and decluttering and organizing.

Jane: I love the idea that you call yourself a coach because I feel like that's going to make people think, I can do this with a bit of support advice and direction.

Is that how you think of yourself?

Julie: Absolutely. I really believe that there's not one way of doing anything. Now, if we get a group of professional organizers in a room and say, sort out that wardrobe or even sort these buttons. We have had competitions at our Christmas party to sort the buttons. Well how do you sort them?

By color? By size? There are not one size fits all. So, it's a matter of helping the people bring those skills out of themselves. Exactly what you're suggesting. A bit of rah rah, a bit of support, a bit of motivation. Have you tried this? Turn it upside down put it on its head but a lot of it as I'm suggesting comes down to them backing themselves.

Most people really know how they want to get things done and how to organize at home. They just need a little bit of encouragement and maybe permission to do something how they want to do it and even a bit of permission on letting things go. Particularly if they're gifts which we may talk about a little bit more today or sentimental items which can be difficult to let go of but really supporting them on that journey.

I do have a bit of a six step system that I use but certainly don't put it down everybody's throat and say this is the only way to do it. It's really depending on their circumstances.

Jane: You are pretty well experienced in talking about clutter then. What makes something to be clutter? Rather than someone's things or their decorations or their trinkets. What makes it clutter?

Julie: It's anything that gets in the way of something that you want to do. If it's a life you want to live or if you want to do ballroom dancing in your dining room and something's in the road you would probably relate to that as clutter. It is just holding you back from the life that you want to live and how you want to go about your life.

And having those things around you that are going to support you with that rather than hanging on to stuff that doesn't support you anymore. It might have been helpful at one stage, but we can let them go now. You mentioned about a collection, collections are awesome if they're not taking up the whole house again, you're not tripping over them. They're not causing you anguish and anxiety and overwhelm. That would be the difference between a collection, and just a pile of stuff or all the clutter. Because even a collection can certainly get out of control at different points.

Jane: What stops someone from letting go of the stuff that they no longer use or need?

What are the common barriers that you see and what are some of the unusual barriers that you see to letting go of things?

Julie: There's always a story behind what their attachment is and always unique to the people. And so, there's not one size fits all. Can be childhood upbringing that they really get attached to things or it was something a gift that mum gave them or something like that.

Even more so how somebody told them that they should react to things, or how they should value something. You never throw anything away. You don't want to waste things, don't want to waste food so it's a lot of upbringings like that but I also have seen and heard of stories in families where two people can be brought up in the same household and told exactly the same things and one is a neat freak and the other is nowhere near a neat freak. The upbringing is certainly a good contributor to it and how you attach yourself to your things but it's a well-known thing that just by owning something we certainly attach more value to it. There were some experiments done where they'd have two groups of people, and one lot of people had this particular coffee mug and this other group of people didn't have the coffee mug and then they were asking people how much do you think this coffee mug is worth?

And the people that owned that coffee mug thought that it was of much higher value than the people that didn't own the coffee mug. We put attachment on things and value on things because we've owned them. It's an imprinting thing that can happen very easily, it can be a piece of paper, it can be a pen, it can be anything.

So lots of different factors, but just the fact that we've owned it can really. Get tangled up in the history of you. It shouldn't define you but sometimes we do look at our stuff in that way but can be a big story behind how our attachments form to our things.

Jane: I think that speaks to the idea that it's different for everyone, their values and beliefs, and as you said, like how they might have grown up, whether there are people that come from times where there was scarcity and you didn't have anything, so you kept everything because you would re sew buttons on different things. Or whether you grew up in a house that was overrun to the point of dysfunction and so you're actively pushing against that.

So that's going to change that level of interaction, isn't it? So, it's very personal. Although I'm sure you would find that for a lot of people they might feel overrun by their things or feel a bit ashamed if someone comes over and sees the way that my house is getting the best of me or it's not organized in the way that I want it to be organized.

Is there a problem with having too much clutter?

Julie: There's lots of different problems with having the clutter and the one that you just pointed out if you start to isolate yourself because you don't want people coming over and that can happen even if you just have a small amount of stuff. I've seen the whole gamut from people that just have a few things out of place all the way through to actual hoarded situation where the whole house is full of things, and it could be that the person that has a house full of things they're very proud of it and they'd be happy for people to come in.

So, you can't say one way or the other there's no good level of clutter, but it can certainly start to get in the way of how you live your life. If you are viewing it in a way that it's getting in the way that you're ashamed of it and that you're not happy with the standard that it's at, again it can be all the way through to a tidy house and still not being happy with it because it's not how mum said you should do it or all the way through to having a lot of stuff and you just get completely overwhelmed by it. Th ere certainly can be a point of having too much clutter but that's completely and utterly up to you. Some places I go to, I walk in and go why am I here? It looks quite neat and tidy. Sometimes when we open the cupboards everything is stuffed in and we certainly do need to do some work on it.

But it's really a personal choice. You know, what are you happy with? How do you want your home to look? How do you want it to feel? Is it functioning for you and your family members? Or is it dangerous? Is it adding to your fatigue because you're having to step over things, or you can't get your walker through it?

We're starting to talk about people living with MS. So, there can be such a thing as too much clutter. But a lot of it's how you think about your clutter as well.

Jane: So, I'm hearing that clutter is in the eye of the beholder because for you something might be not at all useful and you might think of it as rubbish and for me it might be my most prized possession. Is that a good point to make as well that when you're thinking of maybe engaging a professional or getting some professional advice They're not necessarily going to come in and make you throw everything away. Just like how people clean before the cleaner comes, I imagine for some people if they had a professional organizer come, they're going to get a few things and run and hide them in the garage.

Because if you come in and see them, you're going to make me throw them out and I don't want to. So, I'm just not even going to show you that they exist. Don't look in there. That's my stuff. You can't touch it.

Julie: Would never ever make anyone throw anything out. Maybe if it was going to make them sick or mouldy or something but it's still their choice.

It's still their possession. So, we would have conversation about the item. If we really did think that they should let it go, I would have a conversation about it. Tell me the story about it. What's the emotions behind it? What would be the worst thing that would happen if you let it go?

What would be the benefits if you didn't let it go? How would that make you feel? That absolutely would never make anybody get rid of something if they didn't want to.

Jane: And when we're talking about clutter and excess things around the house, is it different for someone who's living with MS? As an MS nurse, I often speak to people on the phone, and they'll talk about the difficulty in keeping up with daily activities or daily chores.

And as you said, you're talking about how people are able to move through their house with a clear path of traffic, with assistive equipment. Tell us about some of your experiences. Supporting people living with MS and getting themselves organized.

Julie: I think a lot of the same skills and tips work for people living with MS.

If they didn't, I often use the same things but maybe just in a slightly different way. We're always talking about having less in the home. We're talking about less clutter, less stuff, because it's just easier to manage. And that doesn't matter if you have MS or any type of disability or if you're able bodied just having less stuff is much easier to manage.

But also, with we were talking briefly before about fatigue of course that is, having more stuff is more fatiguing because you're having to move it around or as I said before, stepping over it or managing it, but you're absolutely right. Of course, it makes managing life more difficult, living with MS being the fatigue or the cognitive changes that might be going through over the time.

But it's certainly managing it in similar steps. If we're going to do a wardrobe, we would break it down into small parts. If we're going through and declutter a kitchen, it would be one draw at a time. If I'm there with them, we could certainly have a bit more of a go at more than one draw at a time. But if they were going to attempt it yourself put a timer on for five minutes have a bit of a go at it.

Have a little rest, sit down, have a cup of tea, put the timer on again and be able to manage it that way. But of course, always getting help where you can whether it's family members or a professional such as myself. A number of my long term clients living with MS that I've been working with, They can still go on a cracking pace I'm still having to chase them and they're leading the way again They know what they want to do.

They just might need some help here and there, lifting something moving something so we're still always working in a good team. Also, that idea if you want to continue doing it yourself I've got a couple of my coaching clients living with MS that they swear by just doing 10 minutes in the morning of decluttering and 10 minutes in the afternoon. They literally have it scheduled in their diary at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, something like that and they just do 10 minutes and they've basically gone through the whole house decluttering and organizing just by making it Nice and manageable like that. So absolutely there are some challenges decluttering and organizing and managing life living with MS but as I say, very similar strategies that I would use for anybody that's found themselves unorganized.

Or a lot of my other clients with different disabilities that come to me through the NDIS scheme.

Jane: We're talking about things that are going to make your day to day life easier. And I think everyone can think of, well, yes, if I knew where things were, if I had an easy place to put them, that would make my life easier.

But as a nurse, when I'm advising people on symptom management plans for their symptoms, some of the things that you're talking about are actually directly advised for managing those symptoms. When we talk about fatigue, we talk about using the limited energy you have in the most efficient way possible.

Whether it's, you've got a wardrobe on a chair in your bedroom, like some people have where you just throw everything on that chair and every morning you have to sort through. Or whether you go to the effort of when you put your clothes away, instead of putting them all in a drawer have you got five baskets one for Monday through Friday, and you put a pair of socks in every basket, a pair of underwear a top you know that you're going to have jeans for this day.

And when you get dressed in the morning, the outfit is already picked ready to go in the Monday box. There's grading of tasks and different ways to do things that I'm sure you're aware of at your black belt. Organizing level versus running around looking for the keys or not being able to find important details for medical appointments as well.

So if we talk about thinking in memory symptoms that people can have what's the importance of having somewhere special to keep all your medical things, for example, is that something you've had experience with?

Julie: Filing cabinets full, absolutely, and there obviously is a lot more of that type of paperwork with any of my clients that come to me through the NDIS, and of course people living with MS, as you say, medical appointments, so, and again that's going to come down to managing it, how it suits for you.

Would you like to Just hole punch it and put it in a lever arch folder by the month that they went to see the doctor, or do you want to use the traditional filing cabinet and, and file things alphabetically, or are you an electronic person and want to scan it in and keep it on your computer? Depending on where you are and how you can use your technology and maybe partly the time that you grew up and whether you had computers when you were younger sometimes it's a little bit more difficult to learn these things as we're getting older, but same sort of thing.

Let's find a system that's going to work for you to be able to manage those files that you're bringing in and have a go at, managing it and sorting it as soon as you can when you come home from those appointments so that they're ready to go for the next time if you've been to see a specialist or just your normal GP and need to take that information to the next specialist, you know where it is.

It's under the doctor's name or might even do it by days of the week similar that you were saying about with the baskets of clothes you go I'm going to need that next Tuesday. I'll put it in the Tuesday folder ready to go So very similar process but trying to keep on top of it with the medical paperwork and funny You say that now that I'm just speaking out loud for a lot of those years that I was at Melbourne Storm particularly the last six or seven years I paid the players a medical bill.

I filled out a About 3,000 Medicare forms in my time. I hear everyone when it comes to paperwork but if you can come with a little bit of a system again get an expert in to help you or somebody a neighbour or someone to give you a hand to get some of those processes set up to be able to keep on top of it.

Jane: Because decluttering can feel like just impossible for some people. I think for a lot of people there's this paralysis by analysis. Thinking about it so much makes it feel impossible or we let the idea of perfection get in the way of progress. Because I can't do it exactly properly the way I want to do it from woe to go, then I can't start.

So where is the best place for someone to start?

Julie: That's a really good question. You can start absolutely anywhere. But there's a couple of different things that come to mind. One is somewhere in the home that's going to make a difference to how your day runs. Whether it's the kitchen, whether you can't prepare your lunch, something like that because the counters are all overrun with things.

Somewhere that's in the center of the home. And then you could have. A number of other small areas in the home, the junk drawer so you can find the batteries when you need them or your bedside table any small project like that but I always like to tell people to start decluttering. By stopping more from coming in the front door in the first place.

It's almost impossible to get on top of your clutter if more and more is coming in. So that might be when you go to the expos in relation to MS. Please just pick up the catalogues and flyers of only the things that you really want. Or be diligent bring them home have a quick look and get rid of them.

But stop more things from coming in the home in the first place. That is my number one place to start but then as I said something small in the home, manageable, ten minutes that we can build up that momentum, build up the skills, build up the motivation and also you just get better at making those decisions as to what to keep and what to let go.

Jane: So, it could be someone saying, that's it, I'm taking two days off I'm going to spend all this time doing a full clean out, or it could be just saying I reckon I've got six spatulas maybe I don't need them all that's this week's goal. So it's allowed to be something small it all counts. It's very difficult to do.

Julie: Big stretches. The longest I work with clients is four hours and with me and the client are absolutely shattered by the end of that four hours, so highly recommend small chunks of time. I know I've said that 15 times already. My business has turned eight last year, so I've had thousands of clients, lots of practice, as we were just saying and I still get tired after three and four hours when you're trying to do it yourself, please just break it down into smaller amounts and any progress is better.

Let's forget about the perfection, and let's, let's go for progress.

Jane: I love that we all might have different perceptions of what it means to do a spring clean or decluttering but hearing you say more than four hours forget about it really makes us think that okay 15 minutes is actually huge. Like that would be massive if we made a few changes because one of the most common symptoms of MS is fatigue and that means that on top of the standard daily busy demands that everybody has, people living with MS have just got this extra layer of stuff.

It's having all these symptoms that they might experience and then keeping up with the admin of MS. Sometimes I'm speaking to clients, and they say it feels like I've got an extra job because I've got appointments and things to keep up with. What are some of your strategies for people who might not be able to spend time lugging things out to a skip at the front of the house or don't have the capacity to list 44 items on Gumtree and have all the text messages coming in about where can I buy it and sell it and what cost?

How do you make it easier?

Julie: If I'm working with a personal or any other professional organiser, there's a fair chance that they would take the stuff that you don't want, rather than you driving around for days and days at a time with it in the back of your car before you get it to the op shop. I take things from my clients all the time.

It often goes to the OP shop, or I'll bring it home and put it on my local buy nothing group and it's gone straight to whoever wants it very quickly and as you're suggesting that's easy for me to manage. But if people want to sell things, they can do that if they want to get some help or whatever to do it but like you're saying it's more energy, it's more time, it's more people saying oh will you take five dollars for it when it's actually worth a hundred. It's A difficult thing to do really to sell things because people particularly on Marketplace or eBay those sorts of places they only want a bargain.

They don't want to pay full price for it. So, it's really a lot of work for not a lot of gain. I highly recommend finding any of your local op shops to donate to. Of course, there's always different charities that are collecting safer refugees in your local area, look out for them. And a few different places that you might not necessarily think of.

You can use Google to say where can I donate an old chair in Melbourne, and it'll come up with lots of different things, not just the op shops but use your friends and your resources around you to be able to help to let the things go. Not very often my clients will make the effort to sell things because it really is, it's another full-time job on that other full-time job that you were just talking about, which is just managing the day to day.

Jane: What are the options when you want to move things on? I can think of throwing them in the rubbish or recycling or donating or selling. Is there anything else?

Julie: No, that's the main things and we mentioned some other sort of buy, swap, sell type groups that you give it away for nothing and they might upcycle it.

We've got a group here close by to me that there's some girls on there that gather a heap of these sorts of things and then they do their own free garage sale. It’s still just going straight to the to the people. If you can find a group like that you can just give the stuff to.

There are some different places if you've got say craft or something like that there might be the reverse truck reverse. Garbage truck and a few special craft ones like that you can look up again if you google to be able to donate Particular things. But I think those main ones and like you said some things do need to go in the rubbish bin. I know we all try and do our best we try and fix things, we try and recycle everybody's hearts broke when the red cycle scheme went bust recently. Hopefully they'll come up with something soon to be able to do something with those soft plastics. If we can't stop it from coming in the house in the first place. But we really do try our very best, but we can't let our rubbish get in the road of living a happier life.

I've seen people that are so overwhelmed and have such anxiety with throwing things in the bin that they're almost having a nervous breakdown. Because they can't let it go and can't put it in the bin. But sometimes things just have had their life.

Jane: Absolutely. And often if you can't find or put your hands on something easily, you're more likely to buy it again.

Every year I buy another sticky tape dispenser for the wrapping paper. It probably does end up reducing and reusing things if you're able to put your hands on it easily. But it does feel very overwhelming. And have you seen people just find so much more energy when they're able to just reduce the clutter and have efficiency in their daily routines?

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Even just this morning I was working with a client and she looks after a couple of young kids that have disabilities and you could just see the weight lifting off her shoulder while we were going through the pantry and just reorganizing that a little bit more, moving a few things here and there.

She had the kids lunch boxes in a couple of different places and their water bottles and their snacks. And we ended up bringing them all together in one cupboard that was sort of just like the lunch making cupboard and she was so happy with that. That only took us 20 minutes.

I think she would have been happier if I went home after that. But some of those little things that just make life easier because you're not having to look for it. You're not having to bend down maybe or stretch up or get a, please don't stand on a stool to get things setting up these little systems just to make life easier just by a few tweaks here and there.

And we always start with the things that are working well for you. If we go back to your example of using the baskets in your room for the days of the week, how about have the days in the week along in some baskets in the kitchen and have your meals planned. Let's find something that's going to work for you and being able to use that somewhere else.

And as you're suggesting that the weight can just lift off people's shoulders and they can function better, they can make better decisions. I'm sure their fatigue reduces because they're not worrying about it so much or having to move around the home to get those things that they use often. So absolutely, the less clutter we can have much better for our health and well being.

Jane: We've already spoken about what the benefits are and the barriers but when we think about how to do it's overwhelming. We're constantly seeing pictures of bookshelves that are organized by colour. If you haven't Marie Kondo'd your house, what did you do during COVID? And then there's aesthetic spice jars and there's a lot of trends and it's hard to keep up.

So what are your staples? You talked about your six step system. How do people declutter?

Julie: It's funny that you mentioned about the colour coded books and those sorts of things because that is not what my business and I do. I had a call a few weeks ago a lady wanted this perfect Pinterest pantry and I was looking around the room going like is there a funny hidden camera somewhere?

Like is someone going to jump out and go I got you because I'm not known for perfect pantries. We want to make things work well for you, if we can reuse a cardboard box, we can buy a few special things if you want. But it's all about making it work for you. I'll just quickly go through those six steps because I think they are helpful and they are in that particular sequence for a reason.

As I mentioned, the first step is to stop more stuff from coming in. There's lots of different ways we can do that with our physical clutter as well as be, my business space and time. You can also stop doing more things. Stop putting more things on your to do list and be very mindful and realistic of what you can do. So that's the first step.

Second step is your commitment to being organized. Organized people are that way because they are diligent, they put the scissors, they put the sticky tape away as soon as they're used it at Christmas time, so they know where it is the next time. They do those little things every day. So, let's be committed to being organized.

The third step is the sorting step. If you've got a junk drawer of stuff, put your batteries together, the paper clips and all of those things with like items and before you know it, it just looks so much different and you can start to make some decisions based on what you've sorted rather than just put your hand in there and try and decide if you're going to keep it or let it go from there. Sorting can be a helpful step.

And then from there, so that's the S Y S we've done. T is things you no longer need. So that's the decluttering step. I've already done a little bit of work before we've even decided if we're going to keep something or if we're going to let it go. Lots of different strategies there depending on what we are decluttering to help us make those decisions.

And then once we've decluttered, then we can come up with the easy storage solutions. That's the fifth step. Again, it can be a cardboard box it can be something purposely bought but it's all about making it easy to return to its permanent home, but also easy to retrieve. You know where it is when, when you've put it away.

And we do that in the fifth step, because I've been to people's homes as well, they've got so many containers and baskets and gadgets for organising. We spend half an hour organising their organising supplies before we can even do the pantry. So, let's do all the up decluttering before we even worry about how we're going to store it and the special containers to store it in.

And then the sixth step is maintenance. It's all about what can we do every day, every second, every minute. We've got a pair of scissors in our hands, we put it straight back where they are. We get home from work, we put our lunch box straight in the dishwasher, we unpack our bag, put the keys where they should be.

Those everyday maintenance things. Those six steps as I mentioned, the process that we use for decluttering, but the key points I'll just point out again is stopping more things from coming in and then making the storage that you choose. To suit you, don't worry about what grandma said, mum said, grandpa said, your kids say even.

What's going to work for you, particularly living with MS, you know yourself and your energy level, so let's set it up ready for you. So that's it in a nutshell, but just making it small and manageable is the best way to do it.

Jane: I think it's great that there's so much work that can be done without having to get rid of things.

Because when you say declutter, I think, oh God, like, you're physically like, my shoulders are up near my ears. The idea that we could just move things around the house and it doesn't have to be a big formal process is great because. On the flip side, there might be things that are weighing heavily on people.

For many people living with MS the changes brought on by the MS mean they're no longer able to continue hobbies or activities that they really enjoyed. Maybe it was knitting, or motorbike riding because these activities are hobbies. They have stuff. So motorbike riding, you've got all your gear that was custom made for you when it was expensive or maybe you baked elaborate cakes and you've got all the bits and bobs or fishing.

And if for some reason you're no longer using these things, cause it's not accessible to you anymore. It can feel really triggering to think I've got all that stuff. I feel like I can't get rid of it feels really triggering but I don't quite know how to work with that. What are some of the strategies that people can use when they're thinking about things that are really quite emotional and how have you helped some people retain the meaning or interact with those things in a way that serves them as opposed to kind of weighs them down?

Julie: That's a really important point because there are so many changes that the people are going through and as they're going through their changes. Well what they're using to support themselves on the journey are different as you're suggesting few things come to mind There's always the good old idea of taking a photo of the item and then being able to keep that as your memory because a lot of people associate their memories with the item. but it's a bit like when a loved one passed away, you don't forget that they were there and that they were special to you and that they meant a lot to you.

But if you were worried about your memory fading of them, take a photo, write a letter or a scrapbook, something like that, any way that you could come up with some ideas to capture those memories and be able to pass on the item to somebody else that can get some joy out of it. No good these awesome things if you're talking about cake Decorating or all those things that you really love doing in the past. Pass it on to somebody else so that they can get the joy from it. Maybe that might help in some way if you're taking a photo, but I was just thinking as well that exactly what you were saying, Jane, that perhaps we don't need to get rid of it. Maybe we can get somebody to come and help us do that, that we used to do, cake decorating, get a support worker, get your niece, get your granddaughter, get somebody and get them to use their skills and teach them, because I'm sure there's still plenty that you can pass on to them, even though your arms and legs might not work quite like they used to but you can certainly be able to enjoy part of it along the way, so maybe if you don't have to get rid of all of it. Another part that I was thinking as well just if you're talking about any type of memento, maybe you can just hold on to a part of what you used to do. Again, if you're talking about something that your grandma gave you, not particularly in relation to your MS journey. But A tea set, something like that, and you don't really like it, but your grandma gave it to you.

Maybe you could just keep one teacup and it could be on display and honouring her and her memory rather than being in a box under your bed collecting dust. And again, being able to pass it on to somebody else to be able to enjoy it. There's a couple of things there in relation to letting things go, but it is difficult.

There's lots of changes that we go through the different stages of life in general, not just living with MS. You know, the kids grow up with their tiny Booties and you know, my oldest son's doing year 12 this year, so he certainly can't wear those booties anymore, but there are babies here in Melbourne that don't have booties.

So, passing them on to somebody else that can use them.

Jane: It's really interesting before you mentioned the idea of getting someone in to help. So obviously you're a professional that does this, but there might be people in, around your life that are friends or family or neighbours that might be happy to help.

I don't know what it is, but for some reason it always feels a bit more interesting and fun to help somebody else with their cleaning or decluttering than your own things. That's a thing, right?

Julie: Oh, absolutely.

Jane: So if someone was a bit hesitant to accept help from someone, trust it as well, obviously if they're coming into your space, but it is something that often people don't.

Don't mind doing or it could be a really lovely way of getting to spend time with a loved one, going through their old memories with them, helping them sort things out, especially if someone has a different skill set. They might be able to take pictures of everything and order you a Vistaprint photo album, or they might be quite capable to pick things up and throw it on the nature strip.

So, accepting help is a big thing, isn't it?

Julie: Yeah, and like you say, it can and should be a fun. A trip down memory lane and looking at it as a new chapter in your life. And one of the sayings and decluttering sayings is that you'll gain a lot more by letting go than ever would by hanging on to the item.

Just the freedom, the space, more energy that you get from decluttering. But I love that idea of getting a friend or a neighbour to help out. And I do know a couple of ladies that came to one of my decluttering sessions and the mother and daughter do each other's pantry every year. So halfway through the year they'll do the daughter's and then other half of the year they'll do the mums.

So they can do that work together. It's fun. You have a cup of tea. It might take a few hours. I'm not sure how quickly they work. So could certainly be a fun thing to do with somebody else.

Jane: This is all good and well if the things are your own. What about if it's someone else's clutter? You live with someone else and they have the things.

So you're in a rental, sharing with housemates, you're living with family, a partner, the way that they keep things is having a negative impact on you. That just makes it so much more complicated. What are your tips when it's someone else's things and we have to negotiate our way through that?

Julie: I think it's probably important to have a conversation with the people I haven't lived in a shared home for a while but I certainly do remember times, at uni, but having those open communications and just explaining to them, really makes it difficult for me to get around or, you know, coming up with how you're feeling about it, rather than pointing fingers, let's Focus on how you feel and how it inhibits how you're living in your space.

So you can certainly have those open conversations. But I normally suggest to my clients to just lead by example and actually let's get your stuff sorted out first. Let's lead by example, let's clear out our stuff with a bit of luck. It'll Sort of transfer by osmosis. If that doesn't work we can have some more conversations.

But often even in my own home, I'll come out and go, the kitchen bench is a mess, and I'll look at it and go, oh, well that's my earbuds and that's my drink bottle. And you know, and as I say, this is, this is my job. So it. Take a lot of effort to organize and keep a home decluttered and organized but we can't control what other people do and how they run their lives.

We really want to focus on ourselves, be kind to ourselves. Maybe we can look at the spaces in a different way rather than being negative and they always do this and they always do that. Well, let's see if you can reframe it somehow.

Jane: What about technology? Are there any special apps that people might find helpful or templates or rituals?

You already talked about the daily thing, but what about for the people that are interested in tech?

Julie: There are a million different apps. Personally, I just keep everything very, very simple. I use my Google Calendar, I have all my Google Docs, I have all those sorts of things in one place. I use my phone and my Apple Watch to send notifications to remind me of things.

What have we got here? Missed a call from someone, but three o'clock today, I had a note that came up and said record podcast with Jane. So that I wouldn't forget about it. So, you can have some of those technologies that help you out but the technology can end up getting in the way again, if it's too difficult, if you have to log in all the time, if you have to drag this and drop that there, I think sometimes a piece of paper with a to do list on it.

A weekly planner with the times of the week that you're going to do your decluttering. Have your appointments and those sorts of things and maybe use a few technology things to keep you on time. I'm sure Jane, you've probably got some ideas here as well, but I really do try and keep it very, very simple for my clients not get too far down that.

I think sometimes they can really get in the way.

Jane: An app that I really enjoy and I think could be helpful for people is Adobe Scan. I use it on my smartphone and it takes a very high quality photo of a piece of paper or a receipt and actually then It's like scan quality. So, you don't get the background in what you're doing.

It automatically picks up the text and it's a PDF and you can send it to yourself right away. So for your documents and your receipts and your manuals and things like that, that's a really simple way to use technology. It is free as well. And I don't even think you need a login. So something like that can be quite accessible.

Julie, are there any kind of myths or misconceptions about clutter? I think we already, we already spoke about the fact that a professional organiser isn't just going to come in and say, look, this is not the vibe, we have to throw this out. What else do you hear people getting concerned about or getting mistaken on?

Julie: The biggest one that I see is that clutter is caused by laziness. And it couldn't be further from the truth. I often find I would think that 90 percent of my clients is the opposite. They are living with a disability, their kids are on the spectrum, they've got disabilities, there's paperwork here to look after for them, there's appointments to go for here, the dog's sick, grandma's not well.

They are burning the candle at both ends and they are running as fast as they can to keep their head above water and some things are going to give. The dishes are going to stay there till tomorrow. That's what's going to have to happen. If I'm too tired to do it. I can do it tomorrow. There's no biggie.

So, that is certainly one of the biggest that the clutter is caused by laziness. As I said, couldn't be further from the truth.

Jane: I'm so glad you said that because there might be people listening that feel a deep sense of heaviness and shame about how things at home or in their car, in their mind, in their handbag, in their briefcase.

So is it really important as well to normalize that it's okay to feel overwhelmed? Obviously it's not a good thing we want to hear, but it's normal. And a lot of people feel like that. And don't be embarrassed. You're not going to come into someone's house and judge and say, Oh my God, I quit, like I'm not staying here.

I can't, how did you let this happen? You're an awful person. That's. That's not what's going to happen, is it?

Julie: No, not at all. And I think every client that I go to work with feels like that. They feel anxious, they feel overwhelmed, they feel ashamed because they think that they shouldn't have let themselves get to this point.

But we tell ourselves those stories about a lot of different things. I shouldn't have done this. I shouldn't have, all of those should weigh heavily on us. But I always tell my clients ahead of time don't tidy up before I come because I want to see how the place looks and see where things are so that we can build on that.

Jane: So really important to note then that it's a judgment free zone that You're not to shame yourself or allow anyone to shame you either because we've already discussed how complex this can be. For anyone listening who's got limited time, limited energy and limited money, what are your tips? How can we start small in a really achievable, sustainable, manageable way?

Julie: As I mentioned, just start somewhere that's going to make a difference to how your day runs, or even a goal that you have in mind. Say for instance, if you're going to invite somebody over for lunch, it might not be the whole house that you want to take them into. It might just be the dining room table or just clear the bench or something.

See if you can come up with a little project for yourself so that you can work towards that and there's a real aim and a real goal. Not just, I'm going to tidy up the house. I really think that task focused decluttering for a real reason can certainly give you some motivation rather than, I'm just going to tidy up the lounge room.

Jane: Julie, before we talk about your business and how people can find you, we mentioned that you're based in Melbourne, so if people are living elsewhere and wanting to know how they could find someone to help them with similar things, how do you find someone and know you're in the right hand and trustworthy?

Where do you go for this? Obviously, there's not a medical degree in decluttering that people have that we can check. So how do you find someone to help you?

Julie: So you'll be able to just Google professional organiser in Melbourne, in Adelaide, wherever you might be. We're all over the country and all over the world for that matter.

So you could look at that specifically. They would have a website I would think, they might have a Google reviews page that you could look at and just check that they are a real person and have a look at their reviews and check that they are reputable, but if they've got a website and those sorts of things.

You should be in safe hands but they would always be open to having a chat on the phone.

Jane: Julie, you do have online content, so you've got courses online that people could do if they chose to. Tell us a bit about that.

Julie: There are online decluttering programs. There is three weeks, six weeks and twelve week programs that we run and they are general, decluttering, broad, looking at all sorts of clutter, so you can find those details on my website: spaceandtime.com. au.

But then we have free. Fortnightly workshops as well on zoom. We just had one this morning that was digital decluttering in two weeks time we're going to have wardrobe decluttering and also again just a general one. So they just rotate We've also done memorabilia, we've done getting these kids to school on time.

They're free ones as I said fortnightly via Zoom, but then they all go to our YouTube channel to be able to look at them. And there's blogs, there's downloadable, all sorts on the website to be able to help you out. You might just find one article on there that talks about letting go of kids keepsakes, for example. You might be able to read that and go, okay, yep, I can do this now. Julie's given me permission and you might be ready to go, but always call out. Friends and family or a professional if you need help after that time.

Jane: That's great. So once we've thought about whether getting some professional help, do you think it's quite appropriate that people just ask about the cost?

Because for some people that might be thinking it's exorbitant. There's no way I could afford it. Is it okay to ask, look this is my budget or what do you charge or maybe if you can't help me in the long term, could you just come over for a couple of hours and just give me a plan or can we just have a quick chat?

Because do you think that there's probably something in a price range for a majority of people just to get them going?

Julie: I think so anywhere from maybe $70 an hour up to $190 dollars an hour there are a few people that are specialist OTs and professional organisers, so that they're ready to rock and roll with all sorts of things that you might be really beneficial in relation to living with MS. I'm sure they'll be able to come up with something that would fit within the budget.

The NDIS can possibly cover some of it in your plan, depending on your plan and your plan manager and those sorts of things, so have a look at those options if you are an NDIS participant. But I'm pretty sure that you'll be able to find a solution, whether it's an hour just on the phone or Zoom, planning out what some good steps are and then you could go ahead and implement that plan after some advice, but that ask the question.

Jane: Fantastic. And Julie, lastly just remind us the name of your business again. Where can people find you?

Julie: Thank you. Julie Cliff, declutter coach at Space and Time. So the website is all spelled out in one space and time com au. And you'll also find us on Facebook and Instagram, which is space and time organizing . YouTube, wherever your favourite socials are, we will be.

Jane: Lovely and Julie, finally if someone was interested in just having a chat with you, there's a way they can just book a free phone call via your website, is that right?

Julie: That's right. Yep. There's a little button. You click for a free consult half an hour.

It'll ask you a few questions just so I've got a little bit of an idea on what to think about before that consult or a half hour and That'll go straight to my calendar and find a time in my week, that will suit you and suit me as well between my hands on client work So yeah, we'd love to have a chat anyone that's been listening today

Jane: Julie, thank you so much for being generous with your time today and sharing your wisdom and giving so much advice as well, because as we've discussed, there are so many barriers to living efficiently and comfortably within all the things that we seem to accumulate.

So, it's been really helpful to get some tips from you to know that we're not alone and actually there's lots of different ways to get through that. So thank you so much.

Julie: It's a pleasure. Thanks, Jane.

Jane: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Julie. You can find Julie via her website, which is spaceandtime.com.au.

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