Men and mental resilience with Gus Worland

MS Plus acknowledges the traditional custodians of the land this podcast is recorded on, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to their elders past and present.

Nicola: Welcome to MS Podcast series I am Nicola Graham and this episode is all about men's mental health and building mental resilience. Today I'm co-hosting with a friend of mine, Mark Bradley. And we're talking with Gus Worland. Gus is really well known for his roles at Fox Sport. You may know him from Triple M, as part of the Brekkie crew for 10 years.

And for his fantastic ABC series, which Mark and I just recently watched, called Man Up. And that's had about 96 million views worldwide. Gus also heads up the Gotcha for Life Foundation, which is all about preventing suicide. So, in this episode, we're going to get some great tips for better men's mental health and how to start those conversations with your mates and so you can get some help too.

So really warm welcome to Gus and welcome Mark.

Mark: Hi Gus.

Gus: Thanks Nicola. Thanks Mark. Thank you for having me.

Nicola: Pleasure. So, I'm going to hand over to Mark. Mark's had four decades as a builder in the construction industry. He's got two adult sons, so he's got some burning questions to run past you, Gus.

Gus: No worries.

Mark: Hey, Gus. So, I've got a hypothetical here. I'm at the pub having a beer with a mate or grabbing a coffee at smoko, and I sense something is not quite right with my buddy. He tells me, yes, he is struggling. What do I say? How do you start that conversation, Gus?

Gus: Well, there's a couple of things there which I could track you back a little bit, Mark.

Firstly, you’re a hero if you've actually worked out that one of your mates is going through a tough time because a lot of us put the mask on so tightly, it's very hard for us to work out if a bloke is going through a tough time. But if you've been able to do that and they've shown a little bit of vulnerability and you've been able to sense that, then, you know, I tip my lid to you.

I think there's not enough of that happening at the moment. There's way too many of us holding on to stuff or holding on to what we think it takes to be a man by just getting on with things and not showing vulnerability. So firstly, that's the first thing.

Secondly, if they then offer up to you mate, you're right, I'm not going that well. That changes everything because you're not properly expecting them to show that vulnerability and that openness. And that honesty. So, I'm all about building a safe environment to have those conversations of gravity. You know, we are all very happy to have banter conversations absolutely anywhere.

And a pub and a barbecue or getting a cup of coffee at smoko would be very much an opportunity to talk about banter, talk about relationships, but in a real, sort of funny way or check out who's walking by or talk about sport or talk about the weather. You know, we're very comfortable in those conversations.

So, what I would do in that situation, it would change the day for me. So, I couldn't then go back to work or give it a five or 10 minutes and go, okay, we'll catch up about this later. It would have to sort of go, okay, well, we've got a safe opportunity now to have a conversation. We need to have it. And it doesn't need to turn into bursting into tears or deep and meaningful, but you've got to then build that relationship from that moment because those moments don't come around very often.

So, for me, it would be okay. The next half an hour or hour, we've got to like schedule that off and go, right, we've got to concentrate on you, buddy. Then you've got to turn into the best listener in the world. And that's something that us blokes aren't very good at. We've got two ears and one mouth for one reason.

And we should use that in that ratio, but we very rarely do. So, it's a matter then to go, I'm not going to fix it and builders in particular, right? You see a problem, you fix it, you know, with all your years of experience, you go, right, I need to go to Bunnings and get blah, blah, blah, to fix that up. And you'll be able to do it.

And that's what most blokes want to do. And that's why the construction industry. The numbers are so terrible around suicide is the simple fact is you've got tools that can actually do the killing but also on top of that you guys are fixes and you find it really hard when you can't fix things so it's an opportunity then just to sit back and just listen to your friend and that might mean you know you don't say anything for a long period of time and don't try to be that smart ass it fills the gap that's silent with a comment.

Just sit back and wait for the person to have that conversation. And it could mean that they have the conversation is not running out of their nose and tears running out of their eyes. But you need to be ready for that conversation. Then you'd need to say to him. Well, I can't fix you, but I'm so, so proud of you.

The fact that you've told me about it. I'm now a part of your village. I'm now a part of your crew that will give you the help that you need. And that might simply mean he's not worrying alone anymore. And worrying alone is the worst thing a bloke can do, or anyone can do really. We are so much better in a tribe or a team or a group where we feel we're surrounded with like minded people we feel safe with.

So, it's a huge thing for that moment to happen and you don't want to let that moment go. You need to grab hold of it and just listen up and then say, you know what, thank you so much. Now let's go and see if we can get some more help because I'm glad that you've told me but I'm not the expert here.

Mark: So, Gus, that's fantastic. What if we discover through our talking that he is in fact contemplating suicide? He's in a really, really dark place. Where do I turn to get immediate help for my mate to keep him alive? Is there three steps to take?

Gus: There's one step, Mark. One step to take. You take him straight to hospital. That's it.

When it gets to that stage where someone is so dark that they're contemplating suicide, then you need to take them to the hospital, and you need to get professionals involved. It's just like your physical fitness. If you broke a leg or if you were in a real accident on the site. You know, I wouldn't be sitting there trying to get a band aid or, or, or put some, you know, basically, oh, some wrapping around it, and you need to get on with it.

I take you straight to the hospital. So, some doctors and people with expertise can actually help you. So that's what you have to do in that scenario. That would be the last 10 percent of people, those people that are actually to the state where they're like, you know what? I'm not sure if I want to wake up tomorrow morning.

That's when you go, you know what? That's not for me. Thank you for telling me. I'm going to take you, I'm on this step by step journey with you 100 percent. But you need to then get that professional help. What we do at Gotcha for Life is more about giving people the emotional muscle now when things are going along okay.

to actually make sure that you're sharing everything so you're not holding onto everything now. So, if you're building a relationship when things aren't so bad, they don't have to be great, but they're not as bad as your situation. Then you start building that emotional muscle. You start having a few friendships that get a little bit deeper than they are at the moment.

I call it about turning a mate into a friend. You know, you go to that next level where you can talk about things warts and all without any judgment. They're the type of relationships we start. We need to build now before we get to that stage where it could be to the to the hospital for suicidal thoughts and so forth.

So, it's giving people the words to have the conversation of gravity outside of banter and making sure they're not worrying alone. That's the key to it.

Mark: Great advice. Thanks, Gus. The statistics are absolutely shocking. Why is it that so many men suicide?

Gus: Yeah, the stats are there, aren't they? Nearly three ladies a day every day, but seven men a day, every single day, take their own life.

The number one way to die if you're an Australian male age between 15 and 44 is suicide. But even scarier than that, guys, 65, 000 people attempt suicide a year in this country, which is one every 28 seconds. So, You and I have been chatting since 10 o'clock. It's now quarter past 10. So, you can do the math.

Nearly 30 people have phoned up the ambulance in this country and ask for assistance or ask, can you please help me because I've taken some tablets or poison or whatever it might be, or someone's walked in on a loved one or a work colleague and found them trying to take their own life. So, when you add up the seven, three and the 65, 000 attempting, One every 28 seconds.

That's why the work that we're doing is so important around what I call mental fitness or mental health. As you said, Nicola off the top. It's all about building our emotional muscle up now, just like we need to build up physical muscle to get ourselves fitter and healthier. We need to be doing that because there's so many people at the moment worrying alone.

There's so many people that are very lonely. And I have to keep reminding people all the time that we're only physically isolated, not emotionally isolated. And we have to use technology to make sure that the people that we love and adore, the people we cannot imagine being without, we've got to make sure that those people know that they can come to you and talk to you about absolutely everything.

Because at the moment, those stats will tell you that there's way too many people walking around with a mask on, making out that everything is okay when in fact it isn't. And that's the bottom line. You don't want anyone that you love and adore not feeling confident enough or safe enough to walk up to you and say, hey guys I'm going through a tough time I'm wondering if you can help me. Or then you soon realize as soon as I opened myself up to my friends, as soon as I'm open, honest and vulnerable, I realized that everyone else is feeling similar things or they've been through similar things. And they might have come up with some strategies that could help me, but there's no way they can help me if they think that my life is perfect and I'm just rocking and rolling along.

You've got to be open and honest enough with someone to go, you know what? I'm putting the mask on with these other people. It's bloody exhausting. I'm going to tell you, I'm worried about this. I'm worried about jobs. I'm worried about my relationship. I'm worried about my children, whatever it might be, whatever's bothering you.

Find someone who's got you for life that you can share those moments with and they will give you some advice. They'll be able to give you some strategies or they'll be able to at least be on your team that gets you further down the road than we ever will be if we keep thinking just in our own heads.

I make really, really poor decisions if I don't talk it out with my wife and friends. And I think everyone else should be the same. We're so much better when we've got a bit of a team or a village or a tribe around you.

Mark: Gus, typically, when a man suicides, it seems that their friends and family all had no idea that this was coming. No clue. There was no cry for help. Is there anything in particular that we should look out for in our, in our beloved men?

Gus: Well, the thing is, if you know that, and I know that, and that was certainly what started me on my journey, my friend was the guy that, you know, ticked every single box. He had status inside of work, outside of work, wife, three children, no money issues.

He actually paid up mortgages and finance on vehicles and so forth for nearly a year. So, no one had to worry about any paperwork or bills. And you know, you all paid the gas and the electricity and all that jazz. So, he was literally the bloke that you'd go to. He was the go-to guy for everything. And I think in the end, what actually killed him was this old school way of looking at life and thinking, you know what, I've got this all covered.

I don't need to ask for help. And I don't want to be the guy that asks for help because I'm the guy that gives out advice and stuff. So, it would have taken away what was a big part of who he was. So, there was 1,200 of us at his funeral, you know, sitting around having a beer that afternoon going, did you have any idea? Did you have any idea? Did you have any idea? And of course, like you said, Mark, none of us had a clue. And it happens all the time. I go to so many, well, men's groups after they've lost someone and they go, last time I saw them, they were having a ball, you know, they were the happiest there ever were.

They're having a few drinks, or they were having fun here and there. They're talking about the future. They're talking about family, you know, it happens way too often. Unfortunately, that we put this mask on, and we end up making a permanent decision based on a very temporary situation because we don't share how we feel with anyone because we don't feel safe enough to have that conversation to say, you know what, I haven't got my, you know, what together, you know I am struggling at the moment.

And the thing is, we're all struggling. So, we need to change that mindset. And that's why I keep talking about, you know, having enough guts to man up and speak up rather than man up and shut up which is what we've been told to do all our lives. You know that sort of, you would have heard it all the time, Mark, on building sites, you know, take a teaspoon of cement and harden it, you know, what up.

I won't use the language with our beautiful listeners listening, but the simple fact is it's actually braver and stronger and more manly to actually tell someone how you feel rather than keep bottling it up and pushing those emotions down. The thing is we have to unlearn all the stuff that we've been taught growing up and actually go you know what that's nonsense because it doesn't mean we're not resilient doesn't mean we're not hardworking doesn't mean that we don't want to take on some stuff.

We don't have to share everything with everyone all the time but find one person that you can talk to about the important stuff that has got to be the sensible thing moving forward because otherwise. We'll continue to have the numbers that we had before. Seven men, three ladies, one every 28 seconds.

Why do we keep doing the same thing over and over again and looking at those stats and being shocked? The single fact is there’s no change to it unless we actually make some change. So, let's change.

Mark: Gus, what is it about the male psyche? Why do you think it's so hard for men to talk about their own mental health?

Gus: Because we've been living up to it. We're trying to live up to a stereotype that's impossible. that stereotypical bloke that just gets on with things and whatever gets thrown at us we'll be able to cope, and we'll just give us some more stuff to shove it on our shoulders. You know what I mean? And that's just impossible to do.

And as I said, doing that, that way will continue with the numbers that we've just said many times. We don't have to keep repeating them, but they're shocking, aren't they? So, what we have to do is change what it takes to be a man. Like the rules that were set was so long ago. Surely, we can look at a few of them and go, you know what?

I reckon 80 percent of the rules that were built a hundred years ago, they're still spot on, but there's 20 percent there that we can tinker with. An example of that, Mark, would be. Emotions. Should we bury our emotions and not talk about it and just crack on? No. I've got a 20 year old, 21 year old son.

I've got two boyfriends to my daughters who are 20 and 19. Absolutely. No way do I want them worrying alone. I want them to be able to walk into me and say, hey, Gus, can we go for a walk? Can we go for a beer? Can I get a coffee with you? Whatever. Can we find a safe place so I can talk to you about how I feel about my future, about my relationship with your daughter?

Whatever it might be, but I know that's difficult to do. You know, I remember ringing up you my old girlfriends, you know, fathers and back on the landline days, we had to have a conversation with someone. It was like terrifying. And I'm a talker, so I know it's not easy, but we need to build the emotional muscle up in schools, in sporting clubs, and wherever young kids are growing up, we need to give them the skills, the emotional muscle to be able to just suck it up and have a big, deep breath and go for it and just blurt the words out.

Cause as soon as you blurt the first sentence out, If I'm the one receiving it, I'm going, oh, this conversation is different to the ones we normally have. I've got to step up my game here. I've got to be a good listener. I've got to understand it. And I think most people would step up to the plate. The Australians are brilliant at doing stuff for other people, but we're terrible at doing stuff for ourselves.

So, we need to sort of get that out there that it's not selfish to ask for a little bit of your help. Because if someone asked you for help, what's the first thing we do? We drop everything and help them. So, we need to just turn that around. When I spoke to my dad about doing gotcha for life off the back of man up, and of course he was extremely proud of me, but he's, he's not an I love you sort of guy.

And I'm always saying I love him and I'm waiting and my brother's going, he's never going to say it. So just take it easy. But I remember my dad said, this is a generational thing. Like you cannot imagine in two generations time that everyone's going to walk home from school. Like a young boy or girl and say, hey, mom and dad had a really tough day today I want to talk about it. You know, it's just not going to happen that quickly.

It might with some kids, but overall, it's like turning around the QE2. And apparently, he tells me he's a bit of a nerd with ships and stuff, that it takes eight nautical miles to turn around the QE2, which apparently is a really long way.

So, he said, it's just, you've got to start the movement. You've got to start the shift. Slowing it down. I don't think there's ever been more awareness around mental health, mental fitness in Australia everyone knows about it. Now, if you don't know about it, I don't know where you've been living. There's still not enough action that goes behind the awareness and that's where we're at the moment is giving people practical, normal, human ways to actually just be kinder, to be better and to be better mates and better friends or whatever role you play as an uncle, a father, a son.

We just want to be better at it. People are sponges at the moment and we've got to give them the right information, but we need to make sure it's clear, precise and easy to follow. There's a whole lot of people that as soon as they hear the word mental health, that's someone else's drama. Yeah, that's not me.

I just have a few hassles. I worry about my mortgage and maybe my missus and I don't do as much together as we used to. They've got those things, they worry about their kids or whatever. But the thing is, they don't think it's them. The thing is, it's everyone is affected in some way and if we call it mental fitness, it's just like your physical fitness.

You can always be working on things. You can always have exercises, tips and tricks to be able to get better at whatever role you're playing. And that's what we're trying to do at GOTCHA. And I think that is the clearest, easiest way to deal with what I think is going to be a real issue for us moving forward.

Nicola: And I think what you're doing, Gus, as well, and I know Mark does as well, is role modelling. So, you're stepping out there and encouraging men to talk, or you're having those conversations with your mates, and it has that knock on effect, doesn't it? It means it's okay to ask that question. Gus, what advice would you give to somebody who thinks that reaching out for help is a sign of weakness?

Gus: Yeah, I would say, well, the stats will tell you that, you know, we need to do something different. So again, it goes back to the set of rules that were set so long ago. Like, I can't imagine growing up with social media. I can't imagine growing up with this I'm holding a mobile phone for our listeners.

You know, this if I wanted information, I would ask my mum or dad or my grandma and granddad or I'd go to someone's house who had an encyclopedia Britannica. which not every house did because they were expensive. You know what I mean and I went to, in adverted commas, a posh school in a nice area and not everyone had that.

There was no internet and so forth. So, it's a whole different way of learning. So, I have to learn off my kids now. I have to understand that they're living in a very different world to the one that I worked in, that I grew up in. So, at the end of the day, why is everything that I say It's got to be the way that it is and that goes really against a lot of like my father, you know, whatever he said goes and my house up into a certain age.

I suppose that was the same, but I learned a lot through the man up program, especially in episode two when I sat and watch my son's school and I was just burst into tears most of the time. If you can remember, I was watching a monitor in another room and I knew a lot of those boys, not all of them, but I knew a lot of them.

And I've known them since like under fives, under six, soccer and so forth and I knew their dads. I've sat on the sideline with them and I'm sitting there very conflicted knowing that these boys just under the surface were actually hurting, but they didn't have the words, or they didn't have the emotional muscle to actually tell someone until that safe space was built.

Soon as that safe space was built in that library, all those boys showed so much emotion, didn't they? And it was just beautiful to see. And I think we have to realize a lot of people are going through that. So, we need to change the rules around to go, you know what? The young kids saying, Nicola, to Dad, you know, Dad, we don't do that anymore that way.

We do it this way now. We're actually going to be learning off the youngsters rather than the other way around. And I'm excited by that prospect.

Nicola: Yeah, it's a whole new generation, isn't it, Gus? If anybody listening to this podcast is struggling themselves right now, what do you advise they do?

Gus: Yeah, I would say that we're only physically isolated at the moment.

I know a lot of people are going through a tough time and this was even through before the pandemic, let alone through the pandemic. And we've had so many, if people in Victoria listening now, they've had how many, how many six lockdowns now? Yeah, we need hope. We need hope. I've got a mate that's really struggling at the moment.

I just say to him, you know what, you're only isolated in terms of I can't see you. It's only a physical isolation so the emotional isolation, that is something that you're doing yourself because you're not using technology. Technology has stood up to the test of time in the last 18 months.

It really has the fact that we're talking now on a whole different technology than I've ever done before and I've done a thousand podcasts and, you know, lectures and presentations over the last 18 months staring at my laptop. You know, technology has been brilliant. I FaceTime all my friends overseas. I send them memes.

I send them emails, text messages, funny jokes, cheeky jokes, whatever it might be. Whatever that relationship is, I can keep it going by just thinking about them and then sending it. You've got to action the fact that, you know what, I haven't spoken to blah, blah, blah on a while. Well, that's your fault that you haven't contacted them.

So, step up. It's time to not take your relationships for granted and to actually get a little bit vulnerable but get on the front foot and start these conversations and let people know that you're thinking about them. If you don't need the help, they might need the help. The fact is, you don't know if they need the help because you haven't been in contact with them for the last month or two.

So, step up to the plate. What I get people to do, guys, in my presentations is write down a list of their village. Like, what is the list of the people that you love and adore that you cannot imagine living without? and then go to town marks out of 10 for your, for how you're going within that relationship.

What's your out of 10 mark and if it's not a 7, 8 ,9 or 10 out of 10, then you need to go and step up to the plate and say, you know what? I've got to do more with that person. That's a really good way of a remembering who your village are and then making sure that you're looking after those relationships. So, they can come to you and talk to you when things are starting to get a little bit funny because you don't want any person on that village list to be worrying alone or God help us, you know, end up taking that permanent decision based on a very temporary situation. So, you know, it's up to us to be better friends, to be better uncles, aunties, moms, dads, whatever roles we play. And I think that's a really simple way. Get a pen and paper out, write down the list, give yourself a mark out of 10, then go to work.

Nicola: I think that's a really good exercise, actually, Gus, to consciously think who are your close support crew, who are the people that are in your village, as you say, and then get really front footed and mindful about taking responsibility yourself to improve that relationship.

Gus: The other thing about that is that you get rid of a few people as well. I promise you now, there's 20 people on that list that you haven't spoken to in a year. It doesn't bother you. They were part of your life before. It's different now. Whatever it might be, do a bit of a culling. I had a mate of mine that flew back overseas. He culled 78 people on the flight, and he feels liberated.

Nicola: I was doing a bit of a culling and I felt really bad, and I don't anymore. So, thanks for that, Gus.

Gus: You've just got to cull them and then go, you know what I can now really focus, because you find it hard to get hold of the people you love. So, all of a sudden, you're like, okay, that's going to make it easier because I don't have those people to worry about anymore.

So, write down your village, look after them first, and everyone, everyone else can literally hot it.

Mark: Yeah, your mate on the flight got rid of a lot of excess baggage.

Gus: He sure did. He's one bloke that couldn't afford to pay for it though, but I take your point.

Nicola: Well, it's a bit of quality, not quantity, isn't it?

But if a listener is struggling, Gus, is there phone numbers you might recommend or places you might recommend they go to if they, at this stage, don't feel there's somebody they can reach out to?

Gus: Yeah, I mean, it depends where they are in their journey, but if you haven't got someone that you can reach out to, and most people do, they just don't have the emotional muscle to step up and ask for that help, then professionals are fantastic, you know, just to have someone to share your feelings with and to realize that you're one of many people that are going through stuff.

So, I don't think you're alone in these situations, but also, you know, going back to what Mark said at the start around that, you know, having that support. Yeah, cup of coffee, we're having a beer and your friend offers up hey, I'm suicidal. You know, if you're at that stage, then Lifeline, the hospital, that's where you have to get the real professional treatment.

But most of us are just bubbling along, sort of in that area where we're not quite at the races, but we're not that bad either. And that's where we can really build our emotional muscle and mental fitness now. So, we don't go to that state where Mark mentioned earlier, and we actually go back to being back to where we were before.

So, it's all about, like I said, man up, speak up, not man up, shut up. And we need to change the way that we look at ourselves and asking for help should be something that's brave, not weak. But that takes some time. It gets, you got to get your head around it, but I promise you we will not change any of those stats by staying the same way that we've always stayed.

It's just lunacy to think that we can change anything without changing our habits and behaviors.

Nicola: Yeah, you've got to take that first step, haven't you, Gus?

Gus: Yep. Vulnerability, lead with vulnerability. It'll get you, I promise you, it'll get you where you need to get. Vulnerability is incredibly hard to do, but once you get there, then it just builds a really different environment to have a conversation.

Nicola: So true.

Mark: Gus I was quite lucky as a young fella when a wise man said to me Suicide. is a long term solution to a short term problem. Now, I've had a number of challenges in my life and I've been to some really dark places, but I was lucky in having that mantra to get me through. What do you think are the principal challenges of being an Australian man today?

Gus: We're trying to live up to that expectation of the Aussie male that can handle everything. Don't worry about me. Just give me more responsibility. I'll just get on with it. That's a huge thing. The set of rules that we try to live by is really, really difficult of that stereotypical bloke and it's not just blokes.

It's girls as well. I know we're focused very much on the blokes today, but there's a lot, you know, when you think of the numbers, the seven, three and one every 28 seconds. Most of the people that attempt suicide are ladies, but 75 percent of suicides are men. So, we've got a problem right across our society.

So, it really goes back to changing those rules to allow us to feel safe enough and manly enough to not lose your manhood if you share your emotions. There's a bloke called John Harper, who you would have seen. He was the old country bloke on Man Up. He's an absolute star and he's been pretty dark and when I've been out to some places with him before lockdown, we've gone into sheep sheds and he has to offer beers and a barbecue for anyone to come. Right. That's sort of part of the deal. So, people might travel 100Kms to see him and he does an hour with them in the, in a shed somewhere. Then we normally have a barbie and a few beers.

So, he gets everyone to stand up, and they're all blokes, and he gets them to hold on to their what's the right word? Their family jewels. You've got to hold on to them with both hands. So, you've got to put your beer down, you grab your hold of your family jewels with both hands, and then you've got to look to your right or your left and speak to someone about something outside of banter. So just have a conversation about something, and people are like, oh my God, you know, they're embarrassed, and I don't know what to say, and he allows us to go for five or 10 minutes, and eventually you'll look up, and you'll see other people doing it, and you end up finding a topic, and you can have a conversation with someone, and it's all a bit of a laugh.

And then he stops it, and he goes take your hands away. Are they still there? And everyone laughs. He goes, it shows you, doesn't it? That you don't lose your bits and bobs by having a conversation outside of banter. And it's a really good icebreaker to be able to show these blokes that, yeah, we can have those conversations and that can be a bit awkward. It can be a little bit, oh my God, but you're not going to lose anything of it. And in fact, it's a really brave thing to do. And. When you get, when you finish off the session, you go and have a beer and a steak sandwich. It's like it's awesome, right? Because everyone's gone through something that they wouldn't normally have gone through.

And they certainly didn't expect to have that experience as they're driving to the thing that night. So, it just changes things up. And that's what we need to do. We need to change things up. We can't keep doing the same thing over and over again. And I keep telling everyone that will listen, you know, just speak.

Let people know how you feel and believe me, everyone will get on board with you.

Nicola: And Gus a lot of our listeners will have a chronic health condition that they're dealing with as well, particularly a neurological or multiple sclerosis. Obviously, that can add a whole other layer of emotional pain and challenges for them.

Obviously in Australia. We do tend to have a bit of a she'll be right attitude, and I think generally men seem to look after their cars better than they look after their own personal health, I'm sure you've heard that before. Any advice, particularly for listeners who have got a chronic health condition?

Gus: Yeah, firstly, you know, I'd like to say to anyone that has that sort of condition, you know, how, how much I'd like to put my arms around you and give you a cuddle and be as kind as I can to you of what you're going through, and I imagine a lot of carers might be listening as well. You know, and a lot of carers are the type of people that very rarely look after themselves as well.

But you're right about blokes and looking after their cars better than they do themselves. And it seems to be a weakness to ask for help or to ask to even go to the doctor, you know, like. These people go to university and stuff for a long time. They're really knowledgeable. They're very educated.

You know, why wouldn't you go and spend half an hour with them and just say, hey these are the bits that are falling off and not quite working properly anymore. So, I'm a huge believer in you know, showing vulnerability. I've got a doctor here on the northern beaches of Sydney that, you know, I've got up.

He knows the work that I do. So, I've got his actual mobile because there's sometimes, I take on so much. I find it really overwhelming. And, you know, he helps me with that without drugs, you know, just by talking and so forth. And for me, the first time I actually just stepped up to the mark and spoke like that was just a brilliant moment because I just saw someone in him that could help me.

You know, and then I can help him with other stuff in his life and things that are going on in his family and so forth. So, it all starts and finishes with having a conversation of gravity outside of banter. So please, anyone that's out there, you're going through enough by yourself. So don't take on anything else.

So, you know, don't feel it's a weakness to ask for any more help because there are people there that love you and they care for you and they want to help you. You know, that's the great thing about being an Aussie. We're great helpers of other people, but not ourselves.

Nicola: Thanks, Gus. And as a woman, how can we help men in this space?

Is there anything that we can do to help enable the men in our life?

Gus: That's the thing, Nicola, about, about that with, with blokes, we don't like to share necessarily the really, really deep stuff with our partner because We've got this thing in us saying, you know, I don't want to be that guy that's seen to be weak to my wife or to my lover or someone who, you know, we've got an expectation of what you think of us.

A lot of the time, the girls know well and truly before the bloke anyway. And girls actually like a bit of vulnerability. They like to see their man being normal and human and showing emotion. And that's the other thing is that. We think that our girl will think that we're weak and not want us if we show that vulnerability.

The simple fact is it's just not true. When I did the man up show and I did the speed dating, I was really open about my feelings and I'm not that I've got a good head for radio. So, there's 10 ladies that wanted to date me over the top of a whole lot of really good looking models who they thought were not emotionally in check.

And they were probably thought those blokes love themselves more than they could ever love them. You know, it's a more about, you know, being a whole man and that takes a little bit of time and experience to, to get to that stage because we're all young ones and expect. You know, the supermodels and so forth and we realized that that's not really what it's all about.

So, Understand ladies that your bloke loves you, but he may not want to share it with you He might want to share it with a mate that he feels probably understands it more than the lady and it's not because he doesn't Love you. It's just that he doesn't hasn't got that much emotional muscle to go that next step. But if you do find someone Like I got a couple of mates and their wives or partners are their best mates and oh, that's like winning the lottery, you know, when you've got someone like that, that you can share everything with.

I spoke this morning to a mate of mine and he's going through a tough time at the moment and just seeing my face on a FaceTime, he couldn't say anything, he just burst into tears and then a minute later, his wife comes across and there's this cuddle and I'm just waiting on the phone, you know, for them to gather themselves.

Like, that's an amazing thing. that he could be so vulnerable to me and then his wife to see it. And then his wife says, look, he's just going through a really tough time at the moment. And she explained a few things to me and I just sat there and then he gathered himself and we had this lovely half an hour conversation.

Now that relationship will last a test of time. The thing is that most relationships haven't got that level of I don't know emotional strength to be able to get through that type of stuff. So don't set the bar up too high. Just as long as your partner is talking to somebody, be happy. It doesn't have to be you.

Throw away and just accept the fact that they're getting help from someone and you can be there for them in other ways.

Nicola: I think that's a really good point for women to hear. It doesn't have to be us they're confiding in, but I think also what you said about making that safe space, Gus, that sort of nonjudgmental holding that space and I love what you said earlier that we've got two ears and one mouth and I must try and use them in that ratio a bit more often myself.

Can you tell us then about Gotcha for Life and how men can get in touch?

Gus: Yeah, look. Yeah, absolutely. It used to off the back of the Man Up program was very focused on men and I thought, you know what, that's what I'm going to do. And then I went, you know what? There are some really good programs out there for women as well and people in between.

So, let's open it up to all Australians. And that's where the focus is now. So, if you go to Gotcha for life.org, it's got all our details. It's got opportunities to, to donate opportunities, to volunteer opportunities to to get some tips and tricks, as I said before, to have that conversation. And really, it's about building that emotional muscle and we give you as much information as possible.

But really the best way for gotcha for life to help a club or an organization or a corporation is to, for me to come in and chat initially about the passion behind Gotcha. For life. And then we like to then have the workshops that go in and do the you know, the school work really, because it does take a bit of time to, for you to change your habits and some skills that you require to do that.

And then we empower people by leaving people within the sporting club or the corporation that can actually go on all the courses. It can be mental fitness first aid. It's just like that can be physical fitness first aid. And so that's sort of the bouncing ball, the between the three levels.

And, you know, we want more and more people to be listening to the type of stuff we're doing in the hope that that will make their lives you know, so much more rewarding and less worrying alone and more vulnerable conversations at the right time that get them through the type of stuff that life throws at them.

Nicola: Thanks, Gus. I know Mark's got one more question for you.

Mark: Well, just reflecting, Gus, on what you're saying. A lot of your tips are about communicating, leading with vulnerability, connecting, having a real conversation, not just banter, but digging deeper. What about men who have depression or mental health issues that are not going to resolve by attitude and skilling up?

Gus: Yeah, absolutely. There are always different levels, isn't it? And when I talk, it's very much a general, you know, situation. So, people that have got harder stuff to do, I mean, that I see a professional and I think there's nothing we can do in that. In fact, I think it's a real strength. So, I think that would just be another specialist that you should say along that journey to get yourself as mentally fit as possible.

That will help you hopefully have, you know, a more positive attitude moving forward with whatever's physically wrong with you. So that's why finding the right person that is your counsellor or whoever it might be is so important and you know, a lot of your listeners may not know but you need to see six counsellors before you normally find the right one.

So, on average, you have to see six. I saw the lady the first time and she's been with me for six years. So I was very lucky, but other mates went and saw her and went, oh, she's not for me. And I found someone, you know, further down the track. So don't just go and see one counsellor and say, that's it.

If you don't click with them, if you don't feel that you can be open, honest and vulnerable with them and be really truthful, then there's no point you being there. It's a complete waste of everyone's time and money. So, find the right person. And that can be such a huge weapon for you. Such a huge tool in your toolbox to be able to get through, you know, the challenges that you will have.

So, I would definitely say that that's the right thing to do. And the government have been really good, you know, 12 to 18 sessions for free. If finance is something that is stopping you at the moment, and that's a really good start to work out if that's the right type of thing for you. But worrying alone again is the worst thing.

So, if you can find a professional that can give you some professional help and medication, I haven't gone down that track. But there are lots of people I've spoken to that have got medication that just level them up and allows them to lead a really good, sort of, life. Well, there's nothing wrong with that either.

Mark: Great advice, thanks Gus.

Nicola: Thanks Gus. I just want to say a really big thank you. Thanks for the work you're doing and really encourage our listeners to reach out and get in touch and to feel reassured that they're not alone. I just want to give our listeners, some support. Information and some numbers, some resources obviously gotcha for life. That's gotcha4life.org. That discusses foundation website you can go to Lifeline that we've mentioned 13 11 14. You can also get support and resources from beyond Blue 1300 224 636. If you have any specific MS concerns or queries, if you'd like to speak to a nurse advisor or a social worker, if you want some support around employment or with the NDIS, or perhaps, I'm sure Gus would endorse this if you'd like some peer support, if you'd like us to match you up with somebody who's in a similar situation to yourself, then give us a call. Call us on MS Connect 1 800 042 138. That's the gateway to all of our services. So big thanks again, Gus. Thanks for your time.

Mark: Thanks, Gus.

Nicola: Thanks, Mark.

Gus: Thanks, Nicola. Thanks, Mark. Pleasure. All the best to you and your listeners.

Nicola: Thanks for joining us today.

Don't forget to tune in to our other podcasts covering a range of MS related topics and again our number for MS Connect, the gateway to our services, 1800 042 138. Take care.